Speaker 0 00:00:00 On this episode of C on 180, I will be chatting with Dr. Katherine Trotman Outta Barus, an inspirational, influential voice that has gone the distance in clinical psychology. We're moving beyond the borders. Be bold. Take risks, lead by example. Believe in your power. Say what you feel mean what you say. Hi, I'm Leslie Ann Cion, host of the new podcast series, cion 180. Join me at Cion 180 on this journey of discovery and advancement.
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Speaker 0 00:01:36 Hello and welcome to cion 180. I am your host, Leslie and Cion. On our podcast series, we feature Caribbean voices from around the world who are making real differences in their areas of influence. I invite you to check out my
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Speaker 0 00:02:34 On this episode of C on 180, we will unravel depression with lecturer and consultant clinical psychologist Katherine Tropman outta Barbados. Dr. Katherine Tropman is a clinical psychologist situated at the intersection of mental health practice and research as a specialist in trauma childhood abuse and personality disorders. She has worked in a number of clinics in the United Kingdom and Barbados. At present, Dr. Trotman lectures in psychology at the graduate and undergraduate levels at the University of the West Indies Cable campus, Barbados. And her research interests include topics surrounding trauma, suicidality, pain management, and neurocognitive function, and the intersection between mental and physical health. Dr. Trotman also manages the suspected childhood abuse and neglect clinic within the Queen Elizabeth Hospital at Bridgetown Barbados. In this role, she manages the psychological care of pediatric patients who have been hospitalized due to abuse or neglect. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Trotman. Welcome to C on 180.
Speaker 3 00:03:51 Thank you, and thank you for having me, Leslie Ann.
Speaker 0 00:03:54 Thanks a lot. Um, doc, I think I want to begin first by saying to you, in this post pandemic period, uh, have you noticed an increase in the number of, uh, depression cases, uh, mental health anxieties, et cetera? Have you found a difference since covid?
Speaker 3 00:04:17 Yeah, absolutely. Um, not just here in Barbados, but globally, we're still kind of patching together information about the incidents of mental health disorders within the Caribbean pre and post pandemic. But global research will tell us that mental health conditions like anxiety, depression, rose by about 25% during the pandemic. Um, you know, this was very concerning <laugh>, because this rise occurred at the same time, many mental health services shut down or were first to reduce the services that they offered. So we, we actually had quite a dangerous time during the pandemic with the incidents of mental health issues.
Speaker 0 00:05:06 Yes, it has come, uh, to the forefront, particularly during covid. I think a lot of people went through all different sorts of stress levels, insomnia, et cetera, um, and, and moodiness and sadness because of all the uncertainty that's surrounded it and, and especially those who lost family members. So, uh, with that in mind, can you give us, uh, a general overview of depression Now, what are the warning signs, symptoms or, or, or triggers.
Speaker 3 00:05:34 Yeah, I can do that. So they're actually a, a great deal of different types of depressive disorders, and they're differentiated by different features. So we're looking at things like duration. We're looking at things like, um, timing. We're looking at things like etiology, which is the cause of the disorder, but the, the main common features of depressive disorders is related to mood. So we're looking at people who are feeling sad, who are feeling empty, who are feeling irritable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and, you know, we, we all feel sad or empty or irritable from time to time. Yes. But in order to actually diagnose a depressive disorder, these low moods, they need to be related to a reduced ability to function, um, at home or at work or at school. So we're really looking at changes over time, and these moods need to be going on for quite a significant period, um, of time. So that's kind of a, a brief overview Yes. Of what we mean when we're talking about depression.
Speaker 0 00:06:40 Right.
Speaker 3 00:06:42 Um, but when we use the term depression, uh, in the, in the public, uh, the layman term, when we talk about depression, we're also usually talking about major depressive disorder. Yes. So I can, I can go through some of the symptoms Yes. Of a depressive episode. Um, but it's really important to remember what I just said, which is that these symptoms need to be happening for the majority of the time for a major depressive disorder. We're looking at two solid weeks of these symptoms happening, um, for most of the time.
Speaker 0 00:07:14 Yes. So, can someone actually tell that something is wrong? Um, let's say after two to three weeks of having these symptoms and you never sort of experienced that before?
Speaker 3 00:07:27 Yes. I mean, it's very easy to get lost in the fog of depression. Yes. Yeah. Um, so I will go through some of these symptoms, but one of them is having this brain fatigue, having issues with concentration, with thinking, with making decisions. Um, so sometimes it's a lot clearer to people on the outside that someone is struggling with depression than it is to the person that's actually struggling.
Speaker 0 00:07:55 Yes. Yes. And how, how do these, uh, symptoms present themselves, um, in, in the demographic that you treat, for instance, um, children, teenagers, and men? Uh, are they different? And if so, how?
Speaker 3 00:08:11 There are, so first I'll just kind of brush over some of the symptoms of depression. Yes. So we're looking at things like depressed mood, feeling sad, feeling empty, feeling hopeless. We're looking at anhedonia, which is talking about a reduced interest or pleasure in things that you used to enjoy. Um, often you see significant weight loss or gain, um, increase or decrease in appetite. We're looking at issues with sleep, and I think you mentioned that earlier. So people are finding that they can't sleep at all, or they're sleeping a lot less than usual. Um, people may feel restless, they may feel slowed down, they may feel fatigued. Um, we often see a lot of feelings of worthlessness feeling guilty, struggling with concentration, memory, making decisions, and then what people normally think about as depression, which is these reoccurrent thoughts of death, feelings of suicidality, or attempting suicide.
Speaker 0 00:09:11 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:09:12 And as you said, you know, we, it does present differently in different ages. So our older relatives with depression may stop being interested in seeing family and friends. They may stop caring about appearance. Um, they might neglect their hygiene. You may find that older people stop stocking appropriate foods in the house. So you go in the house and there, there's nothing in the fridge, nothing in the pantry. Uh, they might neglect their diet. They might stop taking their medication. So that's for older adults? Yes. The demographics that I work with, with young people, yeah. They tend to present a little bit differently. So children and adolescents tend to present as quite irritable or cranky instead of presenting as as sad or dejected. Yes. Um, and we talked earlier about how weight gain our loss is quite a notable feature in adults, but children, they're changing and they're growing constantly. So we're actually a little bit concerned if, for example, a child who's nine years old between the ages of nine to 10 doesn't gain any weight. Right. So we're looking at that beautiful, um, that beautiful chart where children should be growing, uh, over the years. And if they're not meeting that, we're going to be a little bit more concerned.
Speaker 0 00:10:32 Yes. There, there are two things that struck me there. Um, one is some of the symptoms that you described with the, the older patients. And sometimes I wonder if, you know, it's, is it the, the onset of dementia Alzheimer's and how easily it can be misdiagnosed by loved ones or family members? We just dealt with that topic in the last season, so it immediately triggered something in me, because in the Caribbean, uh, we tend not to take this too seriously unless it's over a really prolonged period of time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then w with children, you, you probably think they're just going through a stage, you know, especially teenagers with the hormones raging <laugh>. Uh, so, so I think our audience would, would like to know at what point should we look at this irritability as concerning and how does this irritability manifest itself?
Speaker 3 00:11:24 Uh, that's great. Great question. So we are concerned when it starts to affect their functioning. So if you have a child that, um, was doing really well in school and the grades have started to drop, yes. We're concerned about that. If they, um, were getting on really well with friends and suddenly they don't care about going out to see friends mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if they have very suddenly become a lot more, more cranky and irritable and touchy, if they're more likely to burst into tears when you say something to them, then we want to be a little bit more concerned. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's difficult because we know that when children are going through adolescents, there can be that crankiness, there can be that irritability, there can be that, you know, that drive to differentiate from the family. Yes. But if the child is differentiating, pulling away from the family, but not pulling towards anything else, if they're not trying to, to pull towards, um, school are pulled towards friends Yes. Then we're concerned.
Speaker 0 00:12:36 Yes. Because sometimes, you know, parents would be chatting and they would say, well, is your, is your kid, um, always in the bedroom, you know, not coming out <laugh>, um, except maybe for mealtime or when they're heading out to school, and we'd all say, uh, yes. Yeah. What's happening? Um, and so there is sort of comfort in this commonality of mm-hmm. <affirmative> of behavior. And so one needs to know at what point the parent has to get concerned and is this something that's a two-way street? In other words, should the teachers or the school also be looking for these signs and, and, and assisting in, in, in this process?
Speaker 3 00:13:13 They absolutely should do. Um, and I think there are quite a lot of schools in Barvas. You know, I'm gonna speak about Barbados because that's where I'm situated Yes. That do have counselors who are keeping an eye out. And I, I have had quite a few, um, young people who've come into clinic because a teacher has noticed some, some change, some difference in the adolescent. Um, you know, children are gonna spend a lot of time if you let them in their bedroom on their devices.
Speaker 0 00:13:45 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:13:47 But what I usually tell parents is ask them, what, what is it that you're doing? Yeah. How are you feeling?
Speaker 0 00:13:54 Right.
Speaker 3 00:13:54 Are you feeling sad?
Speaker 0 00:13:56 Yeah. Simple questions. A lot of us from, from the older generation, um, who did not grow up with devices, iPads, iPhones, um, and all these screens, um, somehow feel that, you know, the the almost the addiction to these devices, uh, could be a cause um, for the, the mental changes that we've seen in kids, their moods and disorders. Would you say that that's, that's a fair comment, a fair assessment?
Speaker 3 00:14:26 Um, social media, <laugh>. Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of research that indicates that social media can be dangerous for teenagers. Yes. Um, and you know, we only post our high points. So we, we post our pictures looking cute on the beach, um, but we don't post cleaning the toilets. Yes. So it, it's very easy for our young, young people to assume that everyone else has this better life. Yes. Um, and it's also easy to assume that other people have this better life cuz they're superior Yes. To us in some way. Yes. So it can fuel feelings of depression, but it's unlikely to cause a depressive disorder because depression is, um, a medical condition. Social media is also very good at making us feel dissatisfied with our bodies. So everything is so filtered. Um, it's, it's easy to assume that other people look like their videos and their pictures, and you look in a mirror and you go, well, I've got, um, you know, acne or wrinkles or whatever else.
Speaker 3 00:15:38 Yes. Um, so that can cause some self-esteem issues. And actually when school was starting back in, in person, we had young people who were struggling with go with going back into in-person school because they'd spent two years being able to very carefully filter their school persona. Um, and, and it's terrifying to then be seen in the moment with no, no soft lighting, no filters. Wow. Um, and, you know, self-esteem is very fragile at that age. And adolescents are also very good at point pinpointing each other's weaknesses and zeroing in on them. So it's not an unfounded fear that those young people were having. So I wouldn't say that it creates depression. Right. But it can be all self-esteem issues and, and feelings of being inadequate.
Speaker 0 00:16:35 Right. And, and those feelings, I guess on an extended basis can actually cascade into, into depression if we're not careful.
Speaker 3 00:16:45 Um, yeah. Uh, but I mean, depression does have a biological base, right. So it can, it can trigger, um, episodes of depression. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:16:55 Right. So how do we, for instance, with, with all of these changes that, uh, teenagers have gone through with covid and, and, uh, inability to socialize for extended periods, not going to school in person, um, and being stuck with the screens, the very screens that we talk about, <laugh>. Um, what what advice would you give to, to parents and even, uh, school teachers, for instance, in moving them through this transition, um, successfully, uh, coming out of this cave, so to speak, and then suddenly facing the light?
Speaker 3 00:17:31 Yeah. Um, so if I have a patient that's been diagnosed with depression, or if I have a patient who is just struggling with social media, there's kind of different advice. Um, one of the things that we tell parents just in general is to keep an eye on your child, just because they're in their room doesn't mean that they're in a safe space. Right. So we have to monitor what they're doing both online and offline. Right. Um, social media is not inherently a bad thing, uh, but it can lead to feelings of inadequacy. And it's also quite widely used by predators. Right. So we, we do want to watch that. We want watch who our children are talking to online. We want to watch what they're posting. Yes. Um, because it's very easy to pretend to also be a 14 year old girl, um, online.
Speaker 0 00:18:27 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:18:28 But also like, listen, listen to the children because they'll, they will tell you what's bothering them. They'll tell you when they're struggling mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, but we have to nurture that space between us and our children by letting them come to us when they're younger, listening to them when they have problems and reframing from minimizing their issues. Yes. You don't have any bills to pay in here. Yes. Um, and yes, there's food on your table, but that doesn't mean that you're not struggling. And I find that within the Caribbean, we are very, very quick to minimize children's problems, and then we're surprised when the child hasn't come to us to tell us that they're feeling suicidal or they're feeling depressed or they're feeling worthless.
Speaker 0 00:19:13 Yes. It, it's an excellent point that you're making because I was about to launch into, you know, how we we behave about mental health ailments in the Caribbean and the difficulties in admitting and acknowledging it, the difficulties in seeking help for it, or in even speaking to someone, you know, perhaps that you trust about it because you don't want somebody to know your business. That's, that's the immediate reaction. And it, it, it, it is quite bothersome, I think for clinical psychologists like yourself, that sometimes by the time they get to your door, it's a lot of work to do for this patient to, to recover. So how do we get over this taboo doc? Um, how, how, how do we get our Caribbean folk to understand that speaking to someone about something like mental health is a critical importance.
Speaker 3 00:20:09 And these, these young people, they are absolutely brilliant when it comes, um, to talking about, about mental health. This generation is, is quite happy to discuss their mental health. Right. Um, you know, with parents, when parents come in, I do have to do a lot of psychoeducation. So this is just educating them about what the mental illness is and how it's caused and where it comes from, um, that it's not your child playing the fool <laugh>. Um, so we, we do explain, you know, that this is a medical condition that punishing the child for being depressed or beating the child is gonna make the depression worse or not better. And I do some psychoeducation with the children and the young people, but they tend to have quite a good grasp on mental illness. And I think this is partially because generation Z and beyond, they have access to the internet and social media from a young age. So, like I said, it's not inherently a bad thing. Yes. So if they are experiencing these symptoms, they can go and google the answers or they can look up a TikTok of someone else who's experiencing the same thing. And so they do seem to have been missing some of that taboo Yes. That the rest of us have grown up with.
Speaker 0 00:21:30 Right, right.
Speaker 3 00:21:31 Um, so it's quite refreshing working with them to be, to be honest.
Speaker 0 00:21:34 Yes. I was about to say it's quite the opposite. Um, if we turn our attention to our Caribbean men, for instance, um, who are extraordinarily reluctant, um, to admit, you know, uh, that something is not right and that if that something is not right, the same way I go to a doctor, if I'm, if I have a bad cold, I, I should go to a counselor or therapist or a psychologist for help if I'm going through a sustained period where I know I'm not feeling Right. Yeah. How, how do you deal with, with men in, in, in this perspective, doc?
Speaker 3 00:22:09 Great, great question. So sex and depression is something that we've been talking about a lot because during the last couple of years we have seen quite a few suicides, quite a few men. Yes. Um, committing suicides where people were shocked we didn't, you know, we didn't know Yes. That they were depressed. And that that comes as quite a blow.
Speaker 0 00:22:30 It does.
Speaker 3 00:22:31 Um, in, in general, women are more likely to seek treatment for and to be diagnosed with depression, and women are actually more likely to attempt to suicide Yeah. Than men are. Right. But men are more likely to successfully complete suicide. And, you know, there's some, there's some theories about this, um, difference. One is that it's more acceptable for women to say that they're struggling emotionally and mentally Yes. Than it's for men. Um, and women are more likely to say, well, I'm more comfortable to have these deep emotional conversations with my friends. Whereas men, you know, are more likely to say they don't confide in each other, um, in this way. So as a result, you know, if you're talking to your friends and your friends are concerned, they'll say, well, maybe you need to go and see someone. You hear that often enough, you're likely to go see someone for help. Um, but in terms of suicide, men choose more violent means of suicide. So for example, they're more likely to use, um, firearms. So they're more likely to choose more violent and deadly ways of, of committing suicide than women are.
Speaker 0 00:23:43 Yes. Is there an explanation for that?
Speaker 3 00:23:46 Well, just in general, you know, men are socialized, uh, more in terms of anger, right. Than women are. So, so men aren't really necessarily this concerning or baffling special case when it comes to depression. Yes. The danger is, yeah, this, this, this not being socialized to express your emotions. So yes, men have a much more limited emotional range. Um, so men are allowed to be happy, but not too happy. You know, they're not allowed to be giggly or excited. Um, and men are allowed to be angry. That's, that's really all society allows them mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so when men experience more vulnerable emotions, the sadness, the guilt, the shame, the embarrassing, um, emotions, they tend to be covered up by anger. So I'm, I'm not saying of course, that all men do this or all men are conscious of doing this or that it's a choice to do this. Um, but socialization runs really deep. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, when we think about what little boys are told from birth, you know, big boys don't cry.
Speaker 0 00:24:59 Right. Very much. So
Speaker 3 00:25:01 Little girls don't get that. So if they fall down, a little girl gets comforted. But when little boys fall down and they start to cry, they're told that this display of emotion even warranted emotion, skin your knee, or you're in pain, they're told that that's embarrassing. Big boys don't cry. No, no, no. Don't do that.
Speaker 0 00:25:22 You have to man up.
Speaker 3 00:25:23 You have to man up. So then, of course, arm that are not comfortable expressing their emotions, they're not comfortable telling us when they're feeling depressed. And it, it leads to these extreme cases mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, as opposed to, you know, going in and seeking help.
Speaker 0 00:25:40 Is, is this why? It may be fair to say that it is, uh, the symptoms of depression in men are more difficult to discern to the layman, uh, to the family member or the friend because they tried to disguise it. Does it manifest differently? So, so you just sometimes can get up one morning and hear that, you know, this person took his life and you left scratching your head in shock and grief.
Speaker 3 00:26:07 Yeah, absolutely. Because we've, you know, men are just not allowed to have those feelings. And they do. Of course they do. We all do. Yeah. But you spend your lifetime pushing them down, um, it, it can have disastrous consequences.
Speaker 0 00:26:23 Yes. So, so what can we say to our men folk, um, Catherine, about when they're going through an extended period of this negative, uh, feeling, uh, at what point should they move forward and say, I've gotta seek help. How can we embolden them, uh, to make that approach?
Speaker 3 00:26:47 We want people to come in or help before they get to the point where they are seriously committed considering suicide.
Speaker 0 00:26:56 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:26:57 But in terms of finding a way to help men deal with depression, this is something that men need to do for men. Um, you know, we always hear afterwards, but, you know, that's, that was my boy. I, I care about him. How he couldn't know that I care about him, how he couldn't know that I wouldn't be there for him. And so expressing to your friends that you're there for them when they're struggling, great. Absolutely healthy in your relationships. But what do you do if your friends, you know, you want your friends to feel comfortable talking to you, but your friendships aren't characterized by talking about feelings. You have to model that behavior. Uh, and men don't like that piece of advice, cuz I tell them, if you want your friends to talk to you about your feelings, you have to talk to your friends about your own feelings. You need to say to them, this happened at work today, and I'm feeling really stressed out and I'm feeling anxious, or I got in a fight with my wife and I'm feeling sad about it. We have to let your friends know when you are having these emotions, because that then gives them the space when they're feeling emotionally unwell to speak about it with you. Right. And it's, it's hard because it involves tearing down that socialization and being vulnerable in a way that is very, very difficult.
Speaker 0 00:28:27 Yes. Doc, there there is some controversy as well about treatment, um, for depression is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, is it dependent on therapy? What type of therapy? Is it dependent on medication or a combination of both? And for how long am I just hooked for life on this? At what point do I stop? I think these are genuine fears, um, that people have, you know? Yeah, of course. Is there legitimacy to, to this?
Speaker 3 00:28:57 Well, I think what's really important to remember about depression is that it can be chronic. So you can have depression that will pop up, um, throughout your life. Um, but it can be episodic. So you can have one serious episode of depression in your life and then never experience, um, another, it's really important to remember that a diagnosis of depression is not like a life sentence of everlasting sadness. It's treatable with therapy and medication. Um, but if you have a chronic form of depression, you're going to need to take care of yourself that you would need to take care of yourself with any other disease. So if you got a diagnosis of diabetes, it doesn't mean that you are, you know, unable to enjoy life. It just means that you have to do certain things to take care of yourself. The gold standard as it is for moderate to severe depression, um, in terms of treatment, is a combination psychoactive drug. So that would be things like, um, SSRIs and SNRIs. So these are drugs that help deal with neurotransmitters in your brain and psychotherapy. So what you'd usually do is you'd see a psychiatrist or a psychologist, you've got some medication, and you'd do maybe six to eight weeks of therapy, see how it goes. Things may get better at that point in time, or you might need extended therapy, but it is not the case where you're going to be seeing a therapist every week for the rest of your life. That is not what that looks like.
Speaker 0 00:30:36 So, so what I hear you saying then, it is not an irreversible neurodegenerative disorder.
Speaker 3 00:30:42 The, the, it's not neurodegenerative, it is neurological. Right. But it's not neurodegenerative, it's not going to, it's unlikely to get worse over time.
Speaker 0 00:30:51 Right. And so what can we say now to our audience as we are wrapping up, um, in terms of, uh, detecting, uh, episodes of depression in, in teenagers and also in our men folk, and how do we get both, um, to treat it as something serious and come before you, for instance, Dr. Trotman for help
Speaker 3 00:31:20 Depression? Oh, it can be very difficult to see through the fog of depression. Um, and even if you've already started taking medication, it can take a couple of weeks to start working. So for our loved ones, we give them hand, we give them that motivation, we help them make the appointments, we help encourage them to go to the appointments with children. You put the tablet in front of them every morning with their orange juice and go, all right, you're gonna take this now. Don't expect the child to do it themselves. Um, because, you know, one of the symptoms is a lack of medication with our menfolk similar, the similar behavior. We take care of the people around us that we love. We ask them questions, we ask them how they're, we're they're doing. We try to be there as much as is possible. We encourage them to go for help.
Speaker 3 00:32:13 We encourage them to go to self-help groups, which are very, very important. Men speaking to men. Right. Um, because, you know, men are used to speaking, men will speak to their wives, their girlfriends, their partners about how they're doing. But because that socialization is men socializing other men, it needs to change with men that change needs to be with men. Um, one of my big concerns with parents is always, how are you taking care of yourself? Are you eating? Are you sleeping? What activities are you doing that you enjoy? Who do you speak to when things become difficult? Because parents go all out for their children and they forget that they have needs. Right. But we need to make sure that the parents are coping as well, because you cannot pour from an empty joke.
Speaker 0 00:33:04 Yes. So that's self-care
Speaker 3 00:33:06 <laugh> very self-care. Absolutely. And self-care isn't necessarily, you know, self-care is one of those terms that have gotten in, um, to the, the jargon, the public jargon. Yes. And it doesn't mean boozy brunches self-care doesn't mean, you know, going for a massage. Self-care is about looking at where you are in life and figuring out what are the things you need to do to make sure that you continue coping, that you continue thriving. So for my students, and they hate this, I tell them actually self-care is getting a planner and not procrastinating, so that in two months when this assignment is due, you're not up all night for four nights in a row. And then you're, you know, having small hallucinations. Yes. So self-care is taking care of yourself, not necessarily treat yourself <laugh>. It's, it's a little different.
Speaker 0 00:34:03 Cause I think a lot of us associated with, you know, having a day at the spar, like you say, mimosas with a long extended brunch with our friends Kiki feet, you know,
Speaker 3 00:34:13 <laugh>. So, and you know that that can be self-care if what you need is, um, a break. But sometimes what you need is setting that alarm for six o'clock and going for a walk.
Speaker 0 00:34:26 Right.
Speaker 3 00:34:27 Right. Which is not fun. Yes. But necessary. That's taking care of yourself.
Speaker 0 00:34:34 Yes. So there's some lifestyle choices I'm hearing from you, doc. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that need to be made to, that can also counteract, um, the feelings of depression or, or even when you are in a depression.
Speaker 3 00:34:46 Exactly. Yes. So I'm not gonna ever say that depression is caused by, or can be fixed by exercise or eating. Right? Yes. Um, but it can help once you are in that depressive state. But that is where we need the people around us to help us out, to chi us out of bed and get us to take a, a little walk. I Absolutely. With everything else we're
Speaker 0 00:35:12 Doing, I absolutely agree with you. And I will add that we also need professionals like yourself, um, more out there educating and informing our Caribbean public, um, as to how we need to handle mental health disorders and depression in particular. So I want to take this opportunity to thank you, uh, so much for appearing on this podcast. I know that the information that you have relayed today would be very useful, uh, to all of us here. Thanks so much for the work that you're doing. Katherine,
Speaker 3 00:35:45 Thank you for having me today. I've en I've enjoyed our chat.
Speaker 0 00:35:51 Thank you, Katherine, for an extremely enlightening conversation. I hope this episode helps to advance open discussions about this topic in families, in school, in relationships, and at work. We have learned quite a lot and I hope that it assists us in continuing to shape or reshape our general views about depression and mental health. Thanks so much again, Dr. Katherine Trotman, not only for being a guest here, but for the critical work that you do in this very delicate field. Thank you. This has been Cion 180 where we continue to learn from our community of professionals who grace our platform. Don't forget to hit us up on our social media platforms. We do love hearing from you all. Tune in again next Sunday for another episode, or check us out anytime on YouTube and on c on one eighty.com for all current and past episodes. This is C on 180. Be safe, everybody.
