Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 On this episode of Cion 180, I'll be chatting with Ian Bertram, an inspirational, influential voice that has gone the distance in regional air travel and tourism. Be bold, take risks, lead by example. Believe in your power. Say what you feel mean what you say. Hi, I'm Leslie Ann Cion, host of the new podcast series, cion 180. Join me at Cion 180 on this journey of discovery and advancement.
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Speaker 0 00:01:32 Hello and welcome to cion 180. I am your host, Leslie and Cion. On our podcast series, we feature Caribbean voices from around the world who are making real differences in their areas of influence. I invite you to check out my website at C on one eighty.com or visit your favorite podcast streaming site for current episodes as well as past shows. You can also visit my Facebook and Instagram page for weekly updates, tidbit, advice, and interactions with me, your host and fellow listeners. We are now in the fourth season of C on 180 and we have brought you voices of trauma and triumph discussing a diverse range of topics, mental and physical, healthcare, managing finances, the economy, leadership, and motivational.
Speaker 0 00:02:34 Our guest today is Ian Bertran, one of the earliest practitioners of operations research in the Caribbean. And our topic is very much topical, intra regional air travel, a public good, or some may say an essential service. Ian Bertran is the founding principle of El Perial Management Services operating out of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. He's one of the earliest practitioners of operations research in the Caribbean. In his illustrious career, he has served as the c e O of B W I A and is a funding commissioner of the Securities Exchange Commission of Trinidad and Tobago. Ian has focused on developing mutually beneficial partnerships between airlines and the tourism industry in the Caribbean. He has completed several strategic studies reports and plans for the Caricom region, including a study of the critical issues affecting the regional air transport. Subsector reports on regional aviation sustainability access strategy plans for St. Martin and Gua and Dominica, and developed broad strategies for the St. Martin Master tourism plan. Ian assisted Kasek in revising the kek maa, a key tool in improving regional air connectivity. Ian has also led the team that completed the KE air service policy and strategy focusing on sustainable tourism and trade. Welcome Ian to C on 180.
Speaker 0 00:04:18 We need your voice today, Ian, as a technocrat and someone who has studied, analyzed, assessed and reassessed the state of our regional air connectivity. And those of us, particularly in the Eastern Caribbean region, will complain that since the pandemic, uh, we have suffered considerably and this is retarding the growth of region regionalism. What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 00:04:52 We have suffered, but I think one needs to go on, go back and look at it and decide what it is we really want for travel in the region. Right. If one, every Caribbean country has a daily service to marry everyone.
Speaker 0 00:05:19 Yep.
Speaker 3 00:05:21 I I guess Montserrat is the exception because of runway limitations. Yes. But even GUI now has, that tells me where our priorities are right now. Having said that, we have to recognize that Lee was the main regional carrier, certainly in the Eastern Caribbean, but whereas each government supports its service to the wider world beat Miami or Toronto or London. Once upon a time the regional countries all supported li at,
Speaker 1 00:06:14 But
Speaker 3 00:06:15 Gradually they dropped out and that left Antigua as the sole support for regional air service. Regional air service is not cheap. So that with, with the pandemic and the decline in revenues, but the fixed costs continue where they are. It's no wonder that Lee, uh, went into liquidation. Cause Antigua really couldn't afford to support it. So we, we have to decide governments and government entities and the Caribbean public what we want.
Speaker 1 00:07:03 Okay.
Speaker 3 00:07:04 The Caribbean public naturally wants what I call immediacy. I have to go between Grenada and sts and I want to go there tomorrow and fast.
Speaker 0 00:07:20 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:07:21 And I find I have to go to Miami and then come back down to St Kits. But the current reality is that that is the quickest way to get to St. Kit some Grenada.
Speaker 0 00:07:31 That is correct. Right. It's a vaccine issue for a lot of us.
Speaker 3 00:07:38 It, it is a vaccine issue, but it may have to be an issue that either we prepare to pay large sums for to resolve it within the Caribbean, or we say that that is the, the only option. I don't know what is the demand for service between grenade and zits. I suspect it very low. So do we expect an airline to provide decent service in whether we are through a local hub or not, between the two points, and then who pays for it?
Speaker 1 00:08:24 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:08:24 All right. So there's a whole lot of education that needs to take place, go to, uh, at the public with, with the public Caribbean public. Right. And agree the kind of expectation that would be realistic, I guess, at different price parameters as well as let's say with governments and government identities.
Speaker 0 00:08:50 Yes. I remember you saying, Ian, that there's no such thing as a free ride and that we have in the Caribbean a difficult choice to make. Um, those of us who live and work within the Caribbean region would say to you that it has become extraordinarily expensive and difficult to access between north and south. It's affecting our trade, our commerce, our entertainment, our education studies, our sports and regional integration as a whole. And to me, when West Indies was on top in cricket, for instance, you would not have had a Trini posse floating from island to island following the Ws and a test matches if you didn't have that ease of air travel. And while we may blame the pandemic, um, for the collapse of Lilia was struggling for many, many years, some may say, well, some 64 airlines internationally, um, have collapsed and declared bankruptcy since the pandemic. What makes the Caribbean special? What do we tell our politicians or our tourism authorities in terms of how do we get you to refocus on intra regional trade and tourism?
Speaker 3 00:10:09 Uh, people tend to respond to what they perceive to be in their best interest. Victor bodies quite correctly. I could understand it, how focused on the international, because it's US dollars or Canadian dollars or pounds that are coming, et cetera, et cetera. Right? Right. Uh, it's true. A fair amount of it leaks back out, but one doesn't hear too much about that. Yes. Uh, in terms of regional traffic, right? The demand between certain countries is relatively large and could support private sector, uh, connections with minimal or no subsidy. But there are other, uh, connections where the, the usage jargon, origin, stroke demand, uh, figures are low, very low. Right. So the, the number of options, I, I think one is let's, uh, let's look at the roll of tourism, the tourism bodies, right? What, okay, first of all, I have to recognize that if two authorities are given greater recognition in the last day or two, the regional tourism that they have in the past, right. Which is a, a sea change from what used to happen.
Speaker 0 00:11:49 Correct?
Speaker 3 00:11:51 So I, I applaud that. But what I am not too sure is the region, some 20 other countries or something, you can focus on all of them. So just as how you, you plan, uh, in detail, which states in, in North America, and you want to focus on which countries does gr what countries did what gr want to focus on in the next year for regional traffic. And once there's a central collection point, and that could be CTO stroke, right? One gets a sentence as to where the demand is, uh, is expected, and then most likely, uh, one could approach airlines to see how best with support as support is given to international service, how best that support, uh, how best they could provide service in, in that manner, right? So say the tourism boards, uh, now they will have to sort of look in terms of their different forms of tourism, including intra, uh, destination tourism rhythm and so forth to determine those things. And that gives you a start, all right? At least you know, you could provide a decent service for half of the countries. All right? Okay. That starts discriminating, uh, with respect to the half. But, you know, life is not ideal. You're gonna start somewhere,
Speaker 1 00:13:37 Right?
Speaker 3 00:13:38 Right. You're gonna start somewhere. But, uh, the other point is we have tended to look to regional airlines to solve the regional problems. And I think it's time we go beyond that, right? For instance, uh, because of ancient bilateral agreements, us u UK carriers and in fact some US carriers, but they choose not to use it. UK carriers could fly between the countries and the Caribbean, right? They too recognize it's not economical to do so, so they don't do it. However, because, uh, they need to service a two countries from the metropolitan on one flight because the flight, there's not enough demand for that flight to just go to one point in the Caribbean, St. Lucia, uh, Trinidad out by British and St. Lucia Grenada, uh, again by British, they have then the right to pick up passengers between Sinia, Grenada and solution and tread. And to me, there's absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging that uplift. The, in fact, if the governments or the government entities are supporting those flights, then the more revenue that could be produced by those flights, the less would be the, the less would be the support, right? So that's, to me is a sort of a case of a win-win situation.
Speaker 1 00:15:30 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:15:31 But what has to start thinking outside of the box of regional airlines only,
Speaker 1 00:15:38 Right?
Speaker 0 00:15:38 Because we hardly have any rarely. I mean, how many regional airlines do we have right now operating
Speaker 3 00:15:46 Well, okay. Right now, uh, you have essentially callit in carry callin, <inaudible>, right? Right. But you have inter Caribbean, which is based in ths and keas. But because Thk and Keas is a British colony, it enjoys all the ancient route rights that the UK had within these Caribbean, and therefore could flight to, a whole number could fly between islands and the Eastern Caribbean,
Speaker 1 00:16:16 Right?
Speaker 3 00:16:16 So that there's, as I say, if one starts looking, uh, wider perspective of what regional really means, we were more likely to be able to solve the problems. Uh, let's get back to FEMA in kits. The easiest way within the region to get us in kits is, is probably from Sin Martin, right? No. Sin Martin is fairly popular. <unk> question is, uh, I'm carriers from Sin. Martins fly regularly to St. Kits, allow those carriers to also fly, right? Allow the, the carriers in the French territory, they ready, do a lot of flying to Dominica and, and Martin and so forth. Let them be able to extend their service as they see fit. And one will find that gradually. Uh, we, we, we live in, uh, we closing up all the spaces. Miami does have a rule the fastest, for the longest, for the longest wildlife, foreseeable future, the fastest way to get from Green Grenada to Belize will have to be true Miami,
Speaker 1 00:17:39 Right?
Speaker 3 00:17:40 Yes. Cause nobody in the region has shown any interest in flying to Belize. The similar thing to Bahamas, right? So Miami does have a rotor play and a very important rotor play in terms of linking the Caribbean. I think we need, we need to recognize that.
Speaker 0 00:17:59 So Ian, with all this abundance of empirical studies reports and, and strategic plans, um, that have been presented to car Eastern Caribbean, states, other groupings, why haven't we seen more progress on recommendations, um, that have been proposed, uh, for action? Why are we still in this talking phase? It, it, it, it appears to us in the Caribbean that as long as our politicians can move around to their various meetings and the top exec bigwigs can hire or charter their private planes, the rest of us remain here suffering. Um, surely the data that you presented with your teams, um, will suggest that there is revenue earning opportunities if we approach this in the correct way. Why are we still speaking about this in 2023?
Speaker 3 00:18:59 The answer to that question,
Speaker 1 00:19:01 <laugh>, <laugh>,
Speaker 0 00:19:04 It's a vexing question that a lot of us want to answer. Because for instance, when we talk about the Star St Kits, we are presuming that those of us who need to get to St kits via Miami actually have a US Visa. If we don't have that US Visa, we can't get to St. Kits or Antigua, if that's, we need to take
Speaker 3 00:19:23 Correct. No, correct. What we
Speaker 0 00:19:25 Wrong. What are we not doing, Ian? What do we need to do?
Speaker 3 00:19:29 All right. Uh, I know, know how really serious we are about regional traveling.
Speaker 1 00:19:37 Good.
Speaker 3 00:19:38 Right?
Speaker 1 00:19:40 That's
Speaker 0 00:19:40 A fair comment.
Speaker 3 00:19:43 The revised master multilateral services agreement that allows low all regional entities, all regional airlines to fly between any two points, right? So that, uh, Caribbean Airlines could fly between SIN kits and Antigua and those, and apart from the, you know, this other standard silence and so forth, it doesn't have to enter, enter a particular agreement with any of those countries. And it was supposed to free up the whole facilitation process. I think it took about two years before he of government signed off on, on theasa. Okay? We, we also, I don't have done enough research on regional tourism once upon a time manage is getting once upon a time. Now, the cto, uh, did acquire the study on regional tourism and compared it to international tourism, the returns,
Speaker 4 00:20:56 Right?
Speaker 3 00:20:57 And informed that the regional tourist was in fact, uh, had a deeper footprint on the economy than international, uh, visitor.
Speaker 4 00:21:10 There you go.
Speaker 3 00:21:12 Right?
Speaker 4 00:21:13 There you go. Big.
Speaker 3 00:21:15 So, but I don't know how many people sort of this study seriously, right? But to me, that's, I had looked at at the work that had been done, and I could find no fault with the, with the methodology or anything of the sort. And, you know, it kind of, it kind of made sense if you look at the net figure,
Speaker 1 00:21:45 All
Speaker 3 00:21:45 Right? Because as I see, there's a certain degree of leakage back into the metropolitan, especially from international tourism that does not exist with regional tourism. And so the net return turned out to be, uh, higher with regional tourism. I don't if anybody has done that in recent times. Yes. But I think it's something that's worth doing if only to convince say the regional tourism bodies that hey, this is maybe something worth looking looking at in a more serious way. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:22:24 Because
Speaker 3 00:22:25 The other one is right, the other one is in terms of, uh, pricing, all right? We know that the, that the government's, uh, share of the ticket price that you pay is enormous, right?
Speaker 4 00:22:45 Strangling
Speaker 3 00:22:47 Could be as fast 50% in some cases.
Speaker 4 00:22:49 Yes,
Speaker 3 00:22:51 One could argue I need the money, you guys need the facilities and et cetera, et cetera, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And therefore we, we need to do this thing. Make an honor of sense. In one sense, however, some of us, uh, looked at the Eastern Caribbean, uh, when in 20 15, 16, and looked at demand at different price points. Okay? Now, this was done basically a, a regional survey by sort of asking people, okay, what, what country you want to visit? Uh, basically at what price point? So one was able to get an idea as to the increase in demand and applying that increase in demand to the various taxation points, let's put it that way. Otherwise, hotel tax, whatever tax, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Instead of looking narrowly at the, at the aviation tax, he looked at the broad, uh, tax collection ability of the government. We found that in fact, uh, there was more money coming into the treasury because of the increased demand. All right? Now, unfortunately, I, this is my own conclusion. We have some very risk adverse finance, uh, ministers <laugh> believe in the hand, is we turning the bush
Speaker 0 00:24:37 <laugh>, putting it diplomatically, yes. <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:24:40 But there's also another problem, uh, which I understand, but don't accept. It's in fact, all the money is now going into a central point. You don't have to reallocate that money to the airport authorities, et cetera, et cetera, right? So, and we know from past experience when, um, these entities have to depend on the treasury, what happens. All right? So there's a whole new mindset, <laugh>, that has to come into play for this thing to work.
Speaker 0 00:25:17 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:25:20 So we back into the public service culture and all of, all of that means, right? So it is, the issue is a mind change in one, right? I mean, I don't think we have ever approached it from that point of view, right? 90% of my rec of my recommendations or meetings have been with the tourism entities. I have never been asked despite requesting to meet with the finance people,
Speaker 1 00:26:02 Right?
Speaker 3 00:26:03 To get into that kind of detailed discussion to and through and understand why they're rally coming from and see to what extent the solutions could be provided.
Speaker 0 00:26:16 Yeah. Because it seems to me listening to you that what you need is a marriage between the public and private sector, but that there is a stakeholder who is critical to this process in terms of reaching the heirs of the political powers. And that is the regional tourism authorities. Each island has a, a tourism body or a tourism authority of some kind. Um, they need to be clamoring at the top of the staircase to affect these changes. But even within themselves, it seems to me, Ian, what you're saying is that the perspective of intra regional tourism needs to shift substantially still, because we are not accepting that there are tremendous revenue opportunities just from intra regional air travel. And, and it starts with who we perceive to be the best tourist for the Caribbean region. It, it brings me back to comments made by, by the, the premier of Nevis, mark Brantley, who said, uh, in, in, in a discussion that we still thinking that the tourist is a Caucasian with a straw hat and flip flops. And we're not seeing our Caribbean people, um, as being effective tourists with disposable income to spend in an economy. Because when we go to visit these islands, whether it is for St. Lucia, jazz, St Kit's, music Festival, Trinidad Carnival, whatever it is, we are in the community spending money right through.
Speaker 1 00:27:48 Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:27:49 And that must have some tangible consequence on the economy. So I still say to you, what are we not doing? And where do we get this private public sector partnership, uh, injection? Um, I remember sometime you had said, you know, Caribbean people, especially in the Eastern Caribbean, they like to fly on the big plates. Maybe we need to look at smaller plates, um, that might be more sustainable. Does that still operate as a, as a fair assessment?
Speaker 3 00:28:20 It is. And in fact, this is one of the things that master was open to encourage the marriage in the private sector between those entities that have the larger planes, like the etrs and so forth. So the ones who fly the smaller planes, and basically the ones who fly the smaller planes still exist, and they, they've survived through pandemic and everything, so they're making money.
Speaker 0 00:28:45 Right?
Speaker 3 00:28:47 Right, right. Now, they've calmed down their own markets largely in terms of their charters and so forth. But the fact is that they're there. They, they, they're making money, right? But you know that that will come with time. Let's put it that way. All right? Uh, Claudias also need to build a whole set of trust between the larger carriers and the smaller carriers and so on and so forth. Uh, one example that is a rail one is what is going to be the relationship between the two airlines when it comes to liability for passengers, right? Yeah. It is a passenger who is injured, uh, on a smaller aircraft, is the, is a larger airline going to be sued? And it can be if it, if the, if the structure is not properly developed, the legal structure, and, you know, so they're, they're a little shy of each other. And again, this is where the civil aviation authorities in the, in the Caribbean need to get together, right? And agree as one set of rules that would apply to all the countries, but that requires each country shed in some degree of sovereignty. And my conclusion is the smaller the, the country, the more they hold onto the sovereignties.
Speaker 0 00:30:24 Every man is an island onto himself
Speaker 3 00:30:27 <laugh>. So there are, there are those issues. There are those issues with respect to security and the airports, uh, the security people in one country trust the security people at another country. And if the answer is no, which is what it is in the Caribbean, then you gotta go through that whole mess every time you, you multi stop it, right?
Speaker 1 00:30:51 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:30:53 So ease of doing business, uh, facilitation are some of those things that need to get Kraken, which will allow the private sector to play a more meaningful role, right? And go from there.
Speaker 0 00:31:11 Well, perhaps if we gave them incentives, uh, to become involved, um, it might assist because we certainly give the international airlines that we
Speaker 3 00:31:22 Do in
Speaker 0 00:31:22 The region, many of our island governments revenue sharing arrangements, revenue guarantees, subsidies. You know, why, why can't we do it for our own?
Speaker 3 00:31:32 Well, we can, we should. I know that there have been one or two instances where it has started in the, in the Caribbean, and this is primarily by governments that don't have their airport facilities for international service and are dependent on regional visitors. Uh, for the tourism, it has started, it should grow more rapidly. But again, uh, and I think it should be revenue guarantee, rather revenue should done than in a pure subsidy. Yes. But then there's an incentive for everybody. Uh, but again, I think we need to pause the Caribbean, right? Because not every city peer would need, uh, support, right? Yeah. And we know, I mean, you look and see who is flying away at this point in time, and you know that those are the city payers that don't need support, right? Right. Now, again, maybe individual countries should now, uh, take a look at that and say, Hey, I want to have a service between my country on point X and invite bids, right? And into negotiations with the, the, the, the winning bid or the preferred bidder, and negotiate something that, uh, has both a service quality element and a, and a price element.
Speaker 1 00:33:20 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:33:22 I, I
Speaker 3 00:33:23 Listened, but this is a,
Speaker 0 00:33:24 It, it, it sounds like a very, it's like a, a pessimistic tone when I think of the number of areas that you are dissecting that needs action, I mean, it's operational, it's logistics, it's illegal infrastructure, it's the aviation authorities. Um, it's, it's the revenue, uh, areas, what to give up, how much to give up, you know, uh, all of these things say to me, no wonder we had a prime minister recently, Le Eastern Caribbean, say, I'm just gonna lease two planes. Uh, it's born out of frustration with the process. And so my
Speaker 3 00:34:03 Question is, or the cost,
Speaker 0 00:34:04 Huh?
Speaker 3 00:34:05 Exactly. Or the cost <laugh>. So that's the other side of the coin.
Speaker 0 00:34:10 That's the other side of the coin. So, so my final question to you then is what advice do we give these curriculum prime ministers and curriculum heads? Uh, are we duped? Is this, this turbulence going to prevent us from putting planes in the air and for us to be able to traverse our airspace and go watch our cricket and play masks in, in Trinidad? I mean, what, what do we do? What do we tell our kek, prime ministers?
Speaker 3 00:34:41 What are you, what will convince you that you should spend the required resources to promote regional carrier or regional airline, not regional airlines? Forget that. Regional aviation. Yes. Right. What would you rarely be seeking? And then try to structure it such that you could achieve those objectives. So then they, they now have a rare incentive. What we talking about this broad thing, amorphous thing, regional air travel. Right? And it means different things to different people.
Speaker 0 00:35:24 It does. It does.
Speaker 3 00:35:28 I know. So I, I think it's some hardnosed discussions.
Speaker 0 00:35:31 Do you think it is an essential service?
Speaker 3 00:35:36 It is a necessary service. All right. Essential to me, has a connotation that it should be provided regardless of the cost,
Speaker 1 00:35:50 Right?
Speaker 3 00:35:51 And we really can't afford it, right? But we can afford, if, if it is in fact shared by the region, uh, recognizing that in fact some aspects that may seem to want to dilute revenue would impact, increase overall revenue, as I mentioned with the pricing that we could, we could get, uh, we could find a happy medium, which will make it successful. Finally,
Speaker 0 00:36:28 Finally, time is running out. Ian, time is running out. Yeah, I
Speaker 3 00:36:31 Know.
Speaker 0 00:36:32 <laugh> right? Thank you. And time has run out on us. Um, 30 minutes does fly by. I want to thank you so much, Ian, for your helpful, uh, insight into the challenges of inter-regional air travel and for your perspectives and recommendations as to how we may tackle this challenge. Thank you so much for spending time with us this Sunday morning, and enjoy your carnival.
Speaker 3 00:37:01 My pleasure.
Speaker 0 00:37:05 Thank you again, Ian. Today's topic was necessary and timely. Strategic interventions and expert voices like yours are needed if we are going to resolve this issue and leave a travel legacy for the next generation of Caribbean citizens. It is a public good and a public right, and a public service, and we all have a role to play in making it work for the people and the economies of our Caribbean region. Ian, thank you. It was an absolute pleasure to hear from you on this critical topic. Thank you for being with us on the podcast. See on 180. This is season four, and we continue to learn from our community of professionals who have graced our platform. Don't forget to hit us up on our social media platforms. We do love hearing from all of you. Tune in again next Sunday for another episode, or check us out anytime on YouTube and on c on one eighty.com for all current and past episodes. This is C on 180. Be safe, everybody.
