SO2 Episode 1 - Caribbean Politics in a Changing World

INTRO Be bold, take risks lead by example, believe in your power. Say what you feel, mean what you say. Hi, I'm Leslie Ann Seon host of the new podcast series. SEON 180. Join me at SEON 180 on this journey of discovery and advancement. LESLIE-ANN SEON Hello, and welcome again to SEON 180 the podcast series, where we encourage our audience to get in gear and move beyond neutral. I'm your host, Leslie-Ann SEON. Thank you for joining us on our podcast series. We feature people of the Caribbean or with a connection to the Caribbean from around the world, wherever they may be, who are making real differences in their spheres of influence and in the lives of others. Our guests and their voices are meant to help inspire, educate, motivate, and move you beyond your story. I invite you to check out my website at www.SEON180.com or visit your favorite podcast streaming sites for current episodes, as well as past shows. You can also visit my Facebook or Instagram page for weekly updates, tidbits, advice, and interactions with your host and fellow listeners. LESLIE-ANN SEON On the last episode of SEON 180, we saw a flipping of this script. I sat down to chat with a friend and colleague, Lisa Taylor, to discuss the second season of SEON 180, my vision for this podcast and what we can expect to see in this new season. Today, I have the distinct honor and privilege of sitting down with one of the most admired politicians in the region, the Honourable Mark Brantley, Premier of Nevis. He is my legal colleague and a contemporary of the University of the West Indies Cavehill campus. And I like to refer to him as an honorary Grenadian by virtue of his marriage. He has been dubbed as one of the region’s foremost politicians and political orators, and we are all captivated whenever he appears on the media or any platform last served as the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and aviation in the federal government from 2015 to 2022, but is no stranger to parliament, having been elected since January, 2013, where he was deputy premier, and held numerous portfolios, perhaps the most important of which is his representation of district number nine. Folks, I promise you if you care about the region and if you are at all into regional politics and leadership, you won't want to miss this episode. Premier Brantley, welcome to SEON 180. MARK BRANTLEY Thank you very much my friend, and I'm happy to be here happy to, uh, be a part of your podcast and, and truly, truly delighted that you've invited me. And, uh, I hope that we can have a conversation that advances our Caribbean civilization. LESLIE-ANN SEON Thank you. I am very much interested in these types of conversations and we couldn't think of anyone better in the political sphere to start this conversation on the podcast. Uh, primarily because, of course, you have been described as one of the leading foreign ministers, uh, or ministers of foreign affairs in the CARICOM region. And so I wanted to see and hear your point of view about the region and how we are strategically placed in the context of the geopolitics of the day. MARK BRANTLEY Well, let me, uh, just for the record correctly, I'm no longer the foreign minister, I think, as you and the others around region are aware, we're in the throes of a political season. Now, the government that we had put together, uh, seven years ago, which, uh, had its mandate, uh, first mandate in 2015, and renewed mandate in 2020, that government has collapsed. And, uh, the prime minister has decided in his wisdom to terminate the, the appointments of six of his elected team, leaving him in governance, with only three elected members. Uh, I think it's a constitutional, uh, heresy, but nevertheless, I just want to be clear that at this point that I speak to you, I am a former foreign minister—having been a foreign minister for seven years, and that would've made me at the time, the longest serving foreign minister, uh, of the current lot in the region. MARK BRANTLEY Uh, the question, the question you asked, however, I think is an important one in terms of where do we find ourselves and what, uh, is the future for the Caribbean region. I think for a long time, uh, we have, uh, viewed ourselves as insignificant diplomatically, meaning that we understand, of course, that, uh, there are many things that are outside our control, that as countries in the region, we are small in size—saying Nevis for example, we are the smallest in the entire hemisphere and as a consequence with very small populations with, uh, very open economies, subject to exogenous shocks and, uh, you know, buffeted about in terms of the international, uh, wins and whirlwinds that can arise from time to time. We've often, I think, retreated, and I am not of that view. I think that the region has an important voice, an important role to play. MARK BRANTLEY And I think that it is important for us to use mechanisms such as CARICOM to advance that voice alone. We are perhaps insignificant, but together, the Caribbean—CARICOM region—can be a force for good in this world. Uh, we are a zone of peace in our region. We have much, I think, we can teach the world about how democracy ought to function; how we ought to resolve political issues, uh, how we deal with issues, such as crime and climate change, which on the top of, uh, the, the developmental agenda for many globally. Um, I think that the Caribbean has a lot of lessons that we can teach others. And indeed, I feel that together with a collective voice, we can, be a force for good. Um, I have, for example, advocated that it is important for us in the Caribbean to reignite our relationship with Africa, uh, that the countries of the African union, if we can combine their voice with the voice of CARICOM, it means that we become an almost overwhelming force in… MARK BRANTLEY …the international forum, like the United Nations. Yes. Um, I have been as foreign minister, one of the advocates of animating that south south corporation, uh, clearly in Africa, peoples of the Caribbean are viewed as part of the sixth region, uh, meaning that we are part of the African diaspora and on my own visits to the continent, I've been welcomed as a brother. And I do feel that that ought to happen, that we ought to see great engagements I've admired, for example, prime minister, Mia Motley, yes, who we see has been very active in our outreach. And I do believe that that portends excellent, uh, results for us, that rather than, uh, simply preoccupying ourselves with traditional relationships and looking in our context to the north, I think it's also important for us to look, uh, to Africa, to the south and to animate that relationship. I feel that there are unexplored, uh, areas frontiers, for the Caribbean in terms of our diplomacy. I'm glad you and I, yes. Yes. LESLIE-ANN SEON I'm glad you mentioned that because I wanted to ask you about your, your vision for, for the Caribbean and on the geopolitical landscape, um, your, your opinion of CARICOM and where it's headed. Um, and, and whether there is still any value to CARICOM, because I believe that, uh, divided, we are weaker, um, together we are stronger. And if we have other politicians of your ilk, like Prime Minister Mottley, as well, taking a more united approach to the intricacies of foreign affairs and international diplomacy, um, we can certainly benefit in the long run rather than the short term gains, which I know you're not, uh, very interested in you prefer long-term partnerships. MARK BRANTLEY Well, long-term partnerships are how we build countries and how we develop societies. Uh, the, the difficulty is that many of us have been preoccupied. As you say, with short term gains, uh, we need a stadium here. We need a bridge there. We need a road there. And that has been the preoccupation. And we must understand in the context of global politics that people will come sometimes with a checkbook. They come, you know, bearing gifts and we have to engage with the world, but engage in such a way that we constantly have our people of the region at the center of what we do. And we have their development and the advancement of our societies. I very much like to use a phrase that I first heard, uh, coined by Prime Minister Ralph Gonzales, of our Caribbean civilization. I think that many hear language like that, and they don't quite grasp the significance of that language. MARK BRANTLEY I'm happy you introduce me as an honorary Grenada. My wife is from Grenada. I know you well, I would've known you from UWI. I know many people across our region from the University of the West Indies. These are for me tangible indications that our efforts at the regionalism have worked. Yes, clearly we have difficulties and it would not be honest of me if I were to sit here and say that it has all been well. There have been concerns because in any situation where you have independent countries, governments that are elected by national elections, rather than any regional, uh, uh, position, it means, therefore, that many of us are forced to contend with the local politics and the local politics doesn’t always appreciate that notion of a Caribbean civilization and that need for us to approach things in a regional way. That does not mean that we should stop trying. MARK BRANTLEY It does not mean that we should give up on what I think has been a wonderful journey with CARICOM. It has had its failures. Absolutely. But, I can tell you as foreign minister and someone who occupied that space for seven years, to think that a united CARICOM voice has always been a powerful voice and issues as Venezuela, on issues of climate change. I would remind us that the Caribbean led the world on this issue of climate change. It did not happen overnight, but with consistency—climate change is now at the top of the developmental agenda globally. And so I feel that there is much that can be said, of course, the treaty that establishes CARICOM requires us to coordinate foreign policy. We've not always done so. In fact, we've had some very public and spectacular examples of the Caribbean not being together. MARK BRANTLEY Venezuela is an example where we are not entirely together, under the president Trump administration. Yes. we were not entirely together, but I think that, you know, it's, it's like a family, and I don't know about your family, but mine certainly has difficulties from time to time. And you don't give up on the family because you have difficulties, you work them out. That's nice. And so, I think that the value of CARICOM far, far outweighs any difficulties that we have experienced. And we have so many right examples, so many excellent examples of regionalism that have worked for us, whether it's West Indies cricket, whether it's University of the West Indies, uh, there are examples where we have worked together. We have brought value, real value to our Caribbean civilization. And I feel in the context of diplomacy, what we need to do is to coordinate better, sometimes suppress the urge to be nationalistic and see if we can advance the urge to be regionalists in our approach. And I think through that, we not only get the respect of the rest of the world, but we also get the power that comes from having a collective voice. LESLIE-ANN SEON Absolutely. And I don't think that there's anything wrong in our politicians being nationalistic, after all, you do have to serve the needs of your constituency in the country that you represent, but certainly, uh, regional politics can infiltrate our overall perspective, uh, to, to assist in inspiring that younger generation, um, that regionalism is still alive and well. And that the glory days, perhaps of Adams, Manley, Bishop, Williams, et cetera, um, are still with us are still ahead of us, but we need the, the politicians to start emulating that. So, what can we do to change the current public perception of, of politicians and inspire young political aspirants? MARK BRANTLEY But I'm happy you listed out the pantheon of greats, in terms of past politicians. And I think the one thing they all had in common is that they were bigger than the countries that they represented. So yes, national politics has a role. I couldn't be speaking to you if I did not have the appeal to my local population to elect me, but I think we also need, through our language, through our discourse, through programs, such as this, through our engagement to project, beyond the finite corridors of our shores. And to say, uh, in our region that this is not only about Jamaica. So, we expect Prime Minister Holness to project that he's concerned, not just about Jamaica, but also about the region, and in so doing he projects to the Jamaican people at the national level that having a regional perspective is part and parcel of Jamaica's own development. MARK BRANTLEY We have to start to see our development in terms of, at the national level, as part of the region and that Antigua and Barbuda is doing well. And if St. Kitts and Nevis is doing well, and if Jamaica and Barbados are doing well, that we all are doing well, and that we continue in that way, you know, that sense of horizon tide lifting in all boats once we work together. Yes. And I believe that that is important. I'll give you a practical example, and I hope I don't ruffle any feathers when I say this, but take Guyana…Yes. And of course has, uh, for some time suffered economically. We have in our own small country here, thousands of Guyanese nationals who have moved here to seek a better life, just as people from my own country moved elsewhere to the United States, the US Virgin islands, et cetera, to seek a better life. MARK BRANTLEY Now, what is happening is Guyana’s economy is one of the fastest growing economies now in the region with a discovery of oil, uh, with what is happening in that country. And, I am pretty certain that we are now going to see perhaps an Exodus in the opposite direction. Yeah. And so that, to my mind, is clear evidence of what the Caribbean can be supporting each other, understanding that economies are cyclical rise and fall of countries. That's cyclical. We have had so many examples in history and if we are there for each other, we cushion the shocks sometimes of one partner, whilst, of course, relying on that partner to cushion the shocks when it comes to us. So, I think the consistent thing from all of those great names that you've mentioned is that when they spoke, they spoke at a level that the region listened. MARK BRANTLEY Yes. You ask us nowadays, uh, who are the leaders in the various Caribbean countries? It is sometimes difficult, even for people who follow politics to tell you that's correct. Because, you know, there's a certain pedestrian approach if you will, there, there the big voices. And that is why I think, uh, Prime Minister Mottley has been such a breath of fresh air. Yeah. Because, she has gone and stood in international forums and delivered in a way, yes, that tells us that here is somebody who's thinking not only about the four corners of Barbados, but is thinking about the region and the world, in a way that brings to bear a perspective that is so important. And, I think her voice is akin to the voices that we would've heard of the Barrows and the Adams and the Manleys. And, I would like to see more of our leaders arise to that level. MARK BRANTLEY Yes. And projecting that. I mean, let us imagine if we will, that we had the various nations speaking at, at the UN speaking at these, uh, climate change conferences speaking at the Commonwealth Heads. And, speaking at that level, at that pitch, you know, saying to the world that these are our concerns and that we refuse to be silent, that these concerns must be part of the global agenda. And, I think that that is what we need more than ever now to young people coming up. I say to them that politics is important. One of the things that I keep hearing from some of our youngsters is a sense of apathy, that, for them, they don't see any value in politics. And I'm saying to them that do not be, do not be daunted or do not be discouraged. It is important that you engage in the process. MARK BRANTLEY We don't know who the next great leader in the region will be. We don't know who the next great, uh, you know, messenger for our causes will be. And I feel that our people need to engage and to engage positively. Politics is about people. It's about advancing people. And that is what I am seeking to do in my own little way in my little corner of the world. And I feel that more of us need to engage in that way and not get entirely bogged down in the national politics, although that is critical, but to have room and space that when we frame policy and we frame debate and we speak particularly regionally and internationally, we speak in a way that shows that we are messengers. So the cause of the Caribbean… LESLIE-ANN SEON Do you sense, uh, Premier Brantley, that there is a shift in the political landscape in the Caribbean, that voices like yours, uh, voices like, uh, Prime Minister Mottley, who has now gained international recognition, just by championing a regional cause really, should say to our younger generations, that we are capable of commanding the attention of the world, that we can't sit back and allow, and allow ourselves to be picked upon just because we're small and vulnerable and that we have the intellectual capacity to attract the right kind of attention to the Caribbean, whether it's in terms of investment or climate resilience, changes or multilateralism, for instance, um, this is the message that I think I rarely want to, to get the younger people to understand that even though we are small islands with populations of a hundred thousand or more, except for our larger islands, that we can have tremendous impact, what do you say to that? MARK BRANTLEY Well, the value of multilateralism is exactly that, that in a context of the United Nations, uh, every country large or small has the same voice, uh, every country, large or small as the capacity to stand up and be heard and to champion a cause. I think that the value that we can bring, uh, is exactly what you've spoken of, those great leaders from our past. Those now that are occupying the corridors of power and the corridors of leadership in our region, uh, they have to stand up and be counted. And if they are, I think, as we have seen, I don't mean to keep referring to my friend, uh, Prime Minister Mottley, but as we have seen with harm the capacity, the capacity to galvanize the people, motivate people, you know, many years ago, when President Barack Obama spoke, uh, we all sat in our seats. MARK BRANTLEY He had that capacity, when Nelson Mandela spoke, he had that capacity. And, I think that we, as Caribbean people, should never doubt our capacity. We should never doubt our intellectual mettle. I think the University of the Western Indies has produced some great minds in our region and we absolutely, and we ought not to allow anyone to say to us because of our size. We somehow have, uh, less of a grasp of the issues or less of an ability to articulate those issues. And as I said, we have demonstrated tremendous leadership over the years in issues such as climate change. What we need to ensure is that we maintain that oneness of purpose, that singleness of voice and direction, so that there is no crack in our armor here in the region, that people understand it, whether it is the Prime Minister Jamaica, or the President of Guyana, it matters very little. MARK BRANTLEY They will hear a consistent message from our region that these are the issues that matter to us, issues such as international banking and, and the risking that has, uh, put so much pressure on our banking sector issues such as, as the approach, the punitive approach, taken by Europe to blacklist as they call it, uh, jurisdictions in the Caribbean. Sometimes without warning, sometimes without an ability to engage with them as countries ought to. I think that we need issues such as climate change to remain top of the agenda. And we saw the Caribbean moving together during COVID. We saw the Caribbean saying that while COVID-19 was clearly an existential threat to our economies and to our people, it ought not to knock other significant issues such as climate change off of the table. And I believe that that's the voice that, that consistency, but I also think our carrying populations, uh, should understand that, you know, in diplomacy and I've got that a lot. MARK BRANTLEY People say, oh, you're traveling around the world, drinking champagne. Many of us, many people think that that is what happens. It is actually hard work and it is work that doesn't necessarily be immediate fruit. Yes, but we have to have a clear vision, articulate that vision. And when we stand up for Caribbean leaders, whether at the prime ministerial level, the presidential level, or even at the foreign minister level, we need to have that consistency of purpose. That is why I go back to where I started, to say that we need to explore new frontiers. My role as foreign minister for St. Kitts over seven years, was to strengthen relationships with existing partners, but also find new partners. And I'm proud for example, to say that because of that engagement, the St. Kitts and Nevis passport now is the most powerful in the entire region, offering visa-free access to more countries than any other passport in the region. MARK BRANTLEY That was a deliberate effort in our part to widen and strengthen our diplomatic engagements, particularly with Mother Africa, which I feel has not featured enough in terms of our own diplomatic development and our own diplomatic outreach. There is, for example, no excuse why CARICOM does not have a robust presence in Addis Ababa so we can engage in Ethiopia with the African Union. There is absolutely no excuse for that. I believe that this is time that we animate that relationship and that we have the benefits of our own ancestry and our own umbilical cord that connects us to Africa, that we animate that relationship. And that, that becomes a new frontier for Caribbean, uh, and for our diplomacy. LESLIE-ANN SEON And, I think that a lot of us in the Caribbean will agree with you on that approach. It shouldn't be a novel approach, but it seems that in the context of our previous foreign policy history, it is novel. We've always looked to the north. We've always looked to big brother, Sam or uncle UK, so to speak. And we've seen what, what benefits or rewards that has brought us, um, in the last two decades or so. Um, one of the frustrating points, Premier, for Caribbean folk, I think has been to do with the inability to conduct regional trade at the highest level, uh, the inability to live and work, uh, within and amongst us in, in our various islands, easily. Um, and certainly now, uh, with the loss of LIAT, the inability to have effective, uh, inter-regional air transport, whether it's for passengers or freight, uh, how do we focus on this? What, what's your take on how we can solve and start to shift this at the political level? MARK BRANTLEY Well, I think that's where it starts at the political level. And, I think that's where we put parochialism and, and nationalism to one side and really look at what does the region need. Uh, many of our countries in the region are heavily dependent on tourism, for example. Yes. But what is, well, what is the definition of a tourist? Many of us don't see each other as tourists, unless you're Caucasian, we're in a straw hat, perhaps some flip flops, you’re not a tourist. Yes, yes. And so part of what we need to do is to reorient our thinking, because certainly we just had the St. Kitts music festival. For example, if we have people from our region being able to get here for that festival, then they are as valuable as people who are coming from North America or coming from Europe. And, I feel that if we start by simply sitting down and re-examining it and rethinking how we view each other, we will understand that there is value in promoting each other, in engaging each other and each other. And that is why I have, I am so passionate about this Caribbean civilization, going back to the language that I borrowed because I land in any Caribbean country, and I am immediately at home. LESLIE-ANN SEON Yes… MARK BRANTLEY I'm immediately at home. There may be one, there may be nuances, but the reality is whether it's one of the French Islands, the Dutch challenge, it really doesn't matter. Yes, we are home. And I feel that we need to see it like that. And we cannot advance in this Caribbean, unless we have proper trade, proper engagement, we can get to each other. LIAT was beset by all kinds of difficulties. But now that we've lost LIAT, we recognize how valuable it was to us. And, I say, we've lost LIAT, I mean, and we've lost the LIAT that we were accustomed to. And it really means, I think that we, as Caribbean leaders, need to rethink how we view regional carriers, such is LIAT. It might be that LIAT or any new version of LIAT is treated as a public. Good. Just like we build a highway or we build a bridge. Yes. And as a public good, it may not be something that is necessarily for profit, but the region must understand it as a public. Good. It is necessary for our further integration and for further development… LESLIE-ANN SEON An essential service… MARK BRANTLEY <laugh> An essential service. So I have, for example, my in-laws are in Grenada. They came to Nevis to see us over the Christmas. They had to travel via Miami. Yeah. To get. And I said, look at the irony that you’re leaving South Caribbean. Yes. to Miami and the north to come back to St. Kitts and Nevis, because one, it was cheaper, despite the considerable more distance and two, uh, they, it, it was far more efficacious for them to travel that way, far more efficient. So the, the, the reality is I think that we need trade in inter-regional trade. We need to be able to, to engage with each other in terms of goods and services. And we need to be able to continue to rekindle those relationships that matter to the Caribbean, to travel, to see each other, to engage with each other, you know, to play Jab in Grenada and to play, you know, uh, the mass in Trinidad, these are critical parts of our Caribbean experience. And, I think that we cannot achieve any of that if we continue to, to isolate ourselves. So Caribbean governments, for example, pay a lot of money to subsidize flights from Europe and flights from America. Because again, we see those as tourists. We see those as having value. We are less inclined to subsidize regional travel because somehow we don't see those as, as valuable. And that, I think, needs to change in terms of our mindset and how we approach this developmental agenda that we must all share for our region. LESLIE-ANN SEON I think you, you hit the nail on the head, and I like the reference that you, you made to the fact that this interregional air transport is critical to us as an essential service. And it's part of our infrastructure, and it is worth every penny that is spent, because the more we can travel between and amongst each other, the better it is to foster the regional perspective. MARK BRANTLEY Absolutely. LESLIE-ANN SEON Because we're constantly interacting. I wanna thank you for those points, and Premier Brantley, as we close off, because 30 minutes does fly by, um, I'd like to hear your vision, uh, for St. Kitts and Nevis, as you are embarking upon what would be, uh, a, a very, uh, exciting election campaign. MARK BRANTLEY Well, elections are what they are. The people ultimately will make their decision. And as we say, their voice is a voice of God. We’ll have to listen to them and see what they say. Yes. And so I am out on the campaign trail. I'm trying my very best to be reelected. I can say that my party is strong. Uh, we are a party on the island of Nevis, and we look forward to being a part of the next federal government that is formed. My vision for St. Kitts and Nevis is that, as a small country, we have had a big voice in my view, in the sub region, the OECS, and in the wider region. We have charted a course for our diplomacy, which I think is the right course, where we have strengthened relations with existing friends and expanded our network of not only visa-free arrangements, but also diplomatic relations, particularly to Africa. MARK BRANTLEY As we seek to animate our South-South cooperation, I feel that what we need is a country that looks, uh, in, in an outward way, uh, initially to our region, to say that we are part of this Caribbean civilization, but also to look internationally at the issues that matter—not every issue is our issue, but I feel that we need to pick those issues that matter most to our people and to coalesce around those issues and to use our voice in sync, to project that image of sober, sensible leadership. The truth is that we are in difficult times. And as I like to say, here on the campaign trail, uh, serious times demand serious attention from serious people. And we need to demonstrate to the world that we are a serious people, imbued with all the power of the names that you have mentioned, Adams and the Bishops and the Williams, people who have changed this world, uh, like the colossus that they are, and were. MARK BRANTLEY And we are imbued with that power, that strength. When we look at our history and what we have endured as a people to see where we are today, we know that we have the capacity to be world leaders. We know we have the capacity to project an image globally that speaks well for ourselves. So my vision for St. Kitts and Nevis is that we can be bigger than the, the, the small area, geographic area, that we are blessed with. We can be bigger than the small population that we address, that we are blessed with, and that we must reach out to the region and to the world in a positive way, and engage in a positive way. I believe that there are difficult times ahead of us. I believe that what we are seeing now in terms of spikes in oil prices, spikes in the price of food that is affecting and impacting in our people at the domestic level, yes. MARK BRANTLEY That these things are perhaps going to continue. I think what we've seen with COVID 19, the first pandemic in a hundred years, that we are likely to see more of that. And, therefore, it calls for leadership that understands resilience, leadership, that plans, and leadership that recognizes that these challenges sometimes arise out of nowhere. And we have to be prepared, even sometimes for the unexpected. My view is that the region needs to start to do more to feed itself. We need to start to do more in terms of food security. We have the capacity with our oceans, with our, our green economy, with our blue economy, we have the capacity to do more. We have the capacity to develop renewable energy, to wean ourselves off fossil fuels. And what we are seeing now, which is the rising price of oil internationally, which has a knock on effect in our cost of living in Nevis, even bus fares have gone up as a result of that. MARK BRANTLEY Electricity has gone up and the cost of living is rising exponentially. The region needs, I think, to have a reset, and to start to look at those issues, which for me are absolutely critical. Ghana has oil, Trinidad has oil. How can we share that? How can we ensure that we can use what we have in the region to cushion these exogenous shocks for some of us? So, think it's a name for me as a small country, but I would hope that we would have a big voice in our region. And I would like to be a part of that. Assuming our population agrees with me and if they don't, thankfully, I still have that wonderful thing called freedom of expression, where hopefully you'll invite me back and I'll have an opportunity to speak with you some more. LESLIE-ANN SEON Absolutely. I would love to do that because I have more provocative topics that I would like you to touch on. Uh, I've followed you quite a bit in your interviews and engagement, so I know how you articulate your views very well. And I appreciate the underpinning of the regional perspective that you've brought to your portfolio and your life as a politician. Uh, thank you so much, Premier Mark Brantley, for joining me today on Seon180. We wish you every success in your future political endeavors. And I am certainly looking forward to hearing your voice on this Caribbean platform, again. MARK BRANTLEY Thank you. Thank you very much. God bless. LESLIE-ANN SEON Thank you. God bless you, too. Uh, my love to Sharon and, um, and to your family. MARK BRANTLEY All right, I'll do that, and much love to you, as well. Good seeing you. LESLIE-ANN SEON Good to see you, so hope to do it in person soon. MARK BRANTLEY I hope so. I hope so. LESLIE-ANN SEON And, thank you again to our sponsors, Century 21, real estate for joining us on this SEON180 podcast journey and to all our listeners from near and far. Please join us again, next Sunday on SEON180, as we publish another episode. And, I remind you that all episodes of SEON180 can be accessed any time through Seon180.com or on any of your favorite podcasts streaming sites. Be safe, everybody.